ANSWERS TO REVIEW QUESTIONS
prepared by Rabbi Eliezer Chrysler
Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Jerusalem
Previous daf Chulin 20
CHULIN 19-20 - Two weeks of study material have been dedicated by Mrs.
Estanne Abraham Fawer to honor the fourth Yahrzeit of her father, Reb
Mordechai ben Eliezer Zvi (Weiner), who passed away 18 Teves 5760. May the
merit of supporting and advancing Talmud study during the week of his
Yahrzeit serve as an Iluy for his Neshamah.
(a) When Rebbi Yanai says (with reference to the B'nei Rebbi Chiya's
statement ('Mitzvas Melikah, Machzir Si'manim la'Achorei ha'Oref u'Molek')
'Yekablu ha'Rovin es Teshuvasan', he means - that the youngsters will have
to accept the following Kashya.
(b) In querying them from our Mishnah, he interprets the statement 'Nimtza
Kasher bi'Shechitah, Pasul bi'Melikah ... ' - to mean that the Tana is
coming to preclude 'Machzir Si'manim la'Achorei ha'Oref' by Melikah.
(c) The Mishnah cannot be referring to the distinction between 'Oref' and
'Tzavar' - since it already made that distinction in the Reisha.
(d) The Tana mentions ...
1. ... 'Kasher bi'Melikah, Pasul bi'Shechitah' (in the Seifa) - in order to
balance 'Kasher bi'Shechitah, Pasul bi'Melikah' (in the Reisha).
2. ... 'Kasher bi'Shechitah, Pasul bi'Melikah', according to Rabah bar bar
Chanah's refutation of Rebbi Yanai, that the Tana is referring to 'Shen
ve'Tziporen' (a tooth and a fingernail), which are Kasher by Melikah but
Pasul by Shechitah - to balance 'Kasher bi'Melikah, u'Pasul bi'Shechitah'.
(a) We know that 'Lime'utei Shen ve'Tziporen' precludes Mechubar by
Shechitah, and not Talush by Melikah - because then Rabah bar bar Chanah
would have said 'Li'me'utei Talush' (rather than 'Shen ve'Tziporen').
(b) In fact, it would not even be necessary to preclude Talush from
Melikah - since Melikah by definition, means the attached finger-nail of the
(c) When we ask 'Shen ve'Tziporen Behedya Katani Lehu', we are referring
to - the Mishnah earlier in the Perek, which precluded teeth and a
finger-nail which are Mechubar, from the Din of Shechitah.
(d) So Rebbi Yirmiyah establishes 'Nimtza Kasher bi'Shechitah, Pasul
bi'Melikah' by 'Molich u'Meivi', and the Tana is telling us - that 'Molech
u'Meivi is Kasher by Shechitah, but Pasul by Melikah.
(a) There is no way that the B'nei Rebbi Chiya can explain 'Nimtza Kasher
bi'Shechitah, Pasul bi'Melikah' according to those who validate Molich
u'Meivi by Melikah - they inevitably hold that Molich u'Meivi by Melikah is
(b) Rav Kahana defined the Mitzvah of Melikah as 'Kotzetz Ve'yored'. Rebbi
Avin understood - that Rav Kahana was coming to preclude Molich u'Meivi
(like the B'nei Rebbi Chiya).
(c) Rebbi Yirmiyah disillusioned him however, in that, if 'Kotzetz Ve'yored'
is Kasher, how much more so 'Molich u'Meivi' (seeing as there is no Pasuk to
preclude it). And when Rav Kahana said categorically 'Mitzvas Melikah
Kotzetz Ve'yored', he meant - even Kotzetz ve'Yored.
(a) We extrapolate from Rebbi Yirmiyah Amar Shmuel's statement 'Kol
ha'Kasher bi'Shechitah, Kenegdo be'Oref, Kasher bi'Melikah' - 'Ha Pasul
bi'Shechitah, Pasul bi'Melikah'?
(b) We are forced to make this inference - because we have already learned
in the Mishnah that the Oref is Kasher for Melikah, and we do not need
Shmuel to teach it to us.
(c) If Shmuel holds 'Molich u'Meivi Pasul bi'Melikah', then his initial
statement is problematic. And if he holds 'Molich u'Meivi Kasher
bi'Melikah' - then he certainly holds 'Kotzetz ve'Yored', which clashes with
the inference 'Ha Pasul, Pasul'.
(d) Consequently, we must say that Shmuel is not talking about the Dinim of
Shechitah - but about the Hechsher of the Makom Melikah.
(a) Shmuel cannot be referring to performing Melikah ...
1. ... on Simanim which had been moved to the back (Ikur Simanim), because
of the statement of Rami bar Yechezkel, citing a Beraisa - that a bird is
not subject to Ikur Simanim.
(b) So we change Rosho to 'Shipuy Rosho' - which is synonymous with the Oref
2. ... on the head - because, as we have already learned, the Torah requires
"Mul Orpo" (and not 'Rosho').
(c) ... where he performed the first third of the Melikah, before finishing
the last two thirds in the Makom Shechitah.
(d) And it is Pasul, according to the opinion of Rav Huna Amar Rav Asi - who
stated earlier 'Higrim Shelish, Ve'shachat Sh'nei Shelishi, Pesulah'.
(a) Despite the fact that there is no Pasuk in the Torah that requires
Shechitah by a bird, some nevertheless hold that Shechitas ha'Of is min
ha'Torah - due to a 'Halachah le'Moshe mi'Sinai'.
(b) Rav Acha b'rei de'Rava qualifies Rami bar Yechezkel's ruling 'Ein Ikur
Simanim ba'Of' - by confining it to those who hold Shechitas ha'Of is
mi'de'Rabbanan. Those who hold that it is min ha'Torah however, will also
hold 'Yesh Ikur Simanim ba'Of'.
(c) Rav Ashi maintains - 'Adraba, Ipcha Mistabra!' Quite the opposite. It is
those who hold 'Shechitas ha'Of min ha'Torah' who will hold 'Ein Ikur
Simanim ba'Of' and vice-versa.
(d) There is more reason to say ...
1. ... 'Ein Ikur ba'Of if Shechitah ba'Of according to those who hold
'Shechitas ha'Of min ha'Torah - because that is part of the 'Halachah ... '.
2. ... 'Yesh Ikur Simanim ba'Of ' if it is mi'de'Rabbanan - because then the
Rabbanan simply applied the Halachos of Shechitas Beheimahto Shechitas
(a) Rava bar Kisi too, qualifies Rami bar Yechezkel's ruling, confining it
to Melikah - because we compare Ikur to D'rasah and Chaladah, which by
virtue of the nature of Melikah, do obviously not apply to it.
(b) This clashes with Rebbi Yirmiyah Amar Shmuel - who said earlier that
'Kol ha'Pasul bi'Shechitah, Posel bi'Melikah'.
(c) And we answer - that Rava bar Kisi does indeed disagree with Rebbi
Yirmiyah Amar Shmuel, who extends the K'lal of 'Ein Ikur Simanim ba'Of' to
(a) According to Shmuel - Rami bar Yechezkel's Beraisa is not Halachah, in
view of a Beraisa which we will discuss in Perek ha'Shochet, which clearly
includes the P'sul of Ikur in the Din of Shechitas ha'Of .
(b) The basis of the Machlokes between the two Beraisos is - whether
'Shechitas ha'Of min ha'Torah' (the Beraisa of Rami bar Yechezkel) or 'Ein
Shechitas ha'Of min ha'Torah' (the Beraisa in ha'Shochet).
(c) Since no ruling is issued regarding this point - we apply the principle
'S'feika d'Oraysa le'Chumra', and Ikur Simanim will invalidate the
(a) Ze'iri rules that if the Mafrekes of a bird ...
1. ... was broken together with the majority of the flesh that surrounds
it - it is a Neveilah, which is Metamei whoever touches it (even if the bird
is still convulsing).
(b) Rav Chisda supports Ze'eiri from a Mishnah in Zevachim, which rules that
someone who eats a Chatas ha'Of on which a Kohen performed Melikah using a
knife - is Metamei Begadim a'Beis ha'Beli'ah ...
2. ... was broken on its own - it is a Tereifah, which is still considered
to be alive, and which will not be a Neveilah if it is properly Shechted
before it dies.
(c) ... which means - that if someone then eats it , besides himself
becoming Tamei, the clothes that he is wearing at the time become Tamei as
well (as is the Din regarding someone who eats a Nivlas Of Tahor).
(d) This proves Ze'iri's ruling - in that since Melikah with a knife is
considered Shechitah, the Kohen in effect, has broken the Mafrekes with the
majority of the flesh surrounding it, and the Mishnah considers it a
(a) If not for Ze'iri - a bird with a broken Mafrekes and Rov Basar would be
a Tereifah, which is not Metamei Befgadim ... .
(b) The ruling (cited in 'ha'Or ve'ha'Rotav') 'Tereifah she'Shachtah,
Metam'ah' - is only mi'de'Rabbanan, and does affect the clothes the person
(c) We refute Rav Chisda's proof however, on the grounds - that the case in
the Mishnah in Zevachim (unlike the case of Ze'iri, where the Shechitah is
performed afterwards fron scratch) is worse - in that there, the Shechitah
is not a valid Shechitah at all (in which case the animal is automatically a
(a) According to Rav Huna, the Mishnah in Zevachim is worse because the
Kohen performed Chaladah (since the knife was not fully visible when cutting
the Mafrekes). Rava maintains that he perfpormed D'rashah (because he holds
'Molich u'Meivi bi'Melikah, Pasul', as we learned earlier.
1. Rav Huna declines to learn like Rava - because he holds 'Molich u'Meivi
(c) ... like a weasel (Chuldah) which lives in an underground tunnel (which
is the definition of Chaladah).
2. And Rava declines to learn like Rav Huna - because he holds that a knife
cutting through bone can be seen, and is not therefore considered hidden ...
(d) Rava's problem with Ze'eiri's ruling is - that if breaking the Mafrekes
together with Rov Basar turns the bird into a Neveilah (which effectively
means that it is dead) - bearing in mind that this is how the Kohen normally
performs Melikah, how can he then go on to perform Melikah on a dead bird?
(a) Abaye countered Rava's Kashya, from Olas ha'Of, which requires the
cutting of both Simanim - even though once the first Si'man has been cut,
the bird is considered dead.
(b) To which Rava replied - that the purpose of Melikah of the second Si'man
is not to kill the bird, but in order to fulfill the Mitzvah of 'Havdalah'
(severing the two Simanim from the body).
(c) We query this however, from the skin of the Olas ha'Of - which everybody
agrees, does not need to be severed. According to Rava (who learns that the
Havdalah is not part of the Melikah per se), what is then the difference
between the second Si'man and the skin in this regard?
(a) Rava replies - that whatever is crucial to the Shechitah (or Melikah,
i.e. the second Si'man), is crucial to the Mitzvah of Havdalah, and whatever
is not (i.e. the skin), is not crucial to the Havdalah either.
(b) We query this answer however - from Miy'ut Simanim, which are not
crucial to the Shechitah (according to the Rabanan of Rebbi Elazar b'Rebbi
Shimon) - yet they are crucial to the Mitzvah of Havdalah.
(c) Rava therefore re-words his previous answer to read - 'Whatever is
included in the Shechitah is crucial to the Mitzvah of Havdalah (including
Miy'ut Simanim, but precluding the skin).
(d) And finally, to answer his initial Kashya on Ze'iri ('ve'Chi Meisah Omed
u'Molek') Rava defines the Mitzvah of Melikah - as cutting the Shedrah (the
spinal cord) and the Mafrekes but without Rov Basar (which even Ze'iri will
admit, does not render the bird a Neveilah), before piercing the Simanim.