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Chulin 20

CHULIN 19-20 - Two weeks of study material have been dedicated by Mrs. Estanne Abraham Fawer to honor the fourth Yahrzeit of her father, Reb Mordechai ben Eliezer Zvi (Weiner), who passed away 18 Teves 5760. May the merit of supporting and advancing Talmud study during the week of his Yahrzeit serve as an Iluy for his Neshamah.


(a) What does Rebbi Yanai mean when he says (with reference to the B'nei Rebbi Chiya's statement ('Mitzvas Melikah, Machzir Si'manim la'Achorei ha'Oref u'Molek') 'Yekablu ha'Rovin es Teshuvasan'?

(b) In querying them from our Mishnah, how does he interpret the statement 'Nimtza Kasher bi'Shechitah, Pasul bi'Melikah ... '?

(c) Why can the Mishnah not be referring to the distinction between 'Oref' and 'Tzavar'?

(d) Why does the Tana then mention ...

  1. ... 'Kasher bi'Melikah, Pasul bi'Shechitah' (in the Seifa)?
  2. ... 'Kasher bi'Shechitah, Pasul bi'Melikah' (in the Reisha), according to Rabah bar bar Chanah's refutation of Rebbi Yanai, that the Tana is referring to 'Shen ve'Tziporen' (a tooth and a fingernail), which are Kasher by Melikah, but Pasul by Shechitah?
(a) How do we know that 'Lime'utei Shen ve'Tziporen' precludes Mechubar by Shechitah, and not Talush by Melikah?

(b) Why would it not even be necessary to do so?

(c) What are we referring to, when we ask 'Shen ve'Tziporen Behedya Katani Lehu'?

(d) So Rebbi Yirmiyah establishes 'Nimtza Kasher bi'Shechitah, Pasul bi'Melikah' by 'Molich u'Meivi'.
What is the Tana then telling us?

(a) How will the B'nei Rebbi Chiya then explain 'Nimtza Kasher bi'Shechitah, Pasul bi'Melikah', according to those who validate Molich u'Meivi by Melikah?

(b) Rav Kahana defined the Mitzvah of Melikah as 'Kotzetz Ve'yored'.
How did Rebbi Avin understand Rav Kahana's statement? What did he think that it came to preclude?

(c) Rebbi Yirmiyah disillusioned him however, in that, if 'Kotzetz Ve'yored' is Kasher, how much more so Molich u'Meivi.
In that case, what did Rav Kahana mean when he said categorically 'Mitzvas Melikah Kotzetz Ve'yored'?

(a) What do we extrapolate from Rebbi Yirmiyah Amar Shmuel's statement 'Kol ha'Kasher bi'Shechitah, Kenegdo be'Oref, Kasher bi'Melikah'?

(b) What forces us to make this inference?

(c) If Shmuel holds 'Molich u'Meivi Pasul bi'Melikah', then his initial statement is problematic.
What Kashya can we ask on him if he holds 'Molich u'Meivi Kasher bi'Melikah'?

(d) So if Shmuel is not talking about the Dinim of Shechitah, then what is he talking about?

(a) Why can Shmuel not be referring to performing Melikah ...
  1. ...on Simanim which had been moved to the back (Ikur Simanim)? What did Rami bar Yechezkel, citing a Beraisa, say about Ikur Simanim regarding a bird?
  2. ... on the head?
(b) So we change Rosho to 'Shipuy Rosho'.
What does 'Shipuy Rosho' mean?

(c) What did he subsequently do?

(d) And it is Pasul, according to the opinion of Rav Huna Amar Rav Asi.
What did he say (earlier in the Sugya)?

Answers to questions



(a) Bearing in mind that there is no Pasuk in the Torah that requires Shechitah by a bird, on what basis do some hold that Shechitas ha'Of is min ha'Torah?

(b) How does Rav Acha b'rei de'Rava qualify Rami bar Yechezkel's ruling 'Ein Ikur Simanim ba'Of'? In which case will it not apply?

(c) What does Rav Ashi say about that?

(d) What is his reason? Why is there more reason to say ...

  1. ... 'Ein Ikur Simanim ba'Of' if Shchitah ba'Of is min ha'Torah?
  2. ... 'Yesh Ikur Simanim ba'Of ' if it is mi'de'Rabbanan?
(a) Rava bar Kisi too, qualifies Rami bar Yechezkel's ruling, confining it to Melikah.
If Ikur applies to Shechitah, why does it not apply to Melikah?

(b) What problem do we have with this, according to Rebbi Yirmiyah Amar Shmuel? What did Shmuel say about 'Kol ha'Pasul bi'Shechitah'?

(c) How do we answer this Kashya?

(a) How will Shmuel reconcile his ruling with Rami bar Yechezkel's Beraisa?

(b) What is the basis of the Machlokes between the two Beraisos?

(c) What is the Halachah 'Yesh Ikur Simanim' by Shechitas ha'Of or 'Ein Ikur ... '?

(a) What does Ze'iri say about the Mafrekes of a bird ...
  1. ... which one broke together with the majority of the flesh that surrounds it?
  2. ... which one broke on its own?
(b) Rav Chisda tries to support Ze'eiri from a Mishnah in Zevachim.
What does the Tana there say about someone who eats a Chatas ha'Of on which a Kohen performed Melikah using a knife?

(c) What does 'Metamei Begadim a'Beis ha'Beli'ah' mean?

(d) How does this prove Ze'iri's ruling?

(a) What would be the Din if not for Ze'iri?

(b) How will we reconcile this with the ruling (cited in 'ha'Or ve'ha'Rotav') 'Tereifah she'Shachtah, Metam'ah'?

(c) On what grounds do we refute Rav Chisda's proof.
Why is the Mishnah in Zevachim worse than that of Ze'iri, where the breaking of the Mafrekes is followed by a regular Shechitah?

(a) According to Rav Huna, the Mishnah in Zevachim is worse because the Kohen performed Chaladah (since the knife was not fully visible when cutting the Mafrekes).
What does Rava say?

(b) Why does ...

  1. ... Rav Huna decline to learn like Rava?
  2. ... Rava decline to learn like Rav Huna?
(c) Why is 'Chaladah' so called?

(d) What problem did Rava have with Ze'eiri's ruling (from the fact that once the Mafrekes together with Rov Basar are broken, the bird is considered dead)?

(a) How did Abaye counter Rava's Kashya from Olas ha'Of (which requires the cutting of both Simanim)?

(b) What did Rava reply?

(c) How do we query this from the skin of the Olas ha'Of ?

(a) How does Rava answer the previous Kashya?

(b) How do we query this answer (from Miy'ut Simanim, according to the Rabanan of Rebbi Elazar b'Rebbi Shimon)?

(c) How does Rava therefore re-word his previous answer?

(d) And how does Rava define the Mitzvah of Melikah, to answer his initial Kashya on Ze'iri ('ve'Chi Meisah Omed u'Molek')?

Answers to questions

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