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Chulin 76

CHULIN 76-78 - sponsored by Dr. Lindsay A. Rosenwald of Lawrence NY, in honor of his father, David ben Aharon ha'Levy Rosenwald of blessed memory.


(a) Our Mishnah now discusses the Tereifus connected with the hind legs.
What does the Tana say about an animal whose legs are severed ...
  1. ... from the Arkuvah downwards?
  2. ... from the Arkuvah upwards?
(b) And what does he say about one whose ...
  1. ... Tzomes ha'Gidin (the nerve junction that is situated on the hind legs) has been removed?
  2. ... if a bone in the hind leg is broken?
(c) What does he say about the broken limb itself?

(d) Rav Yehudah Amar Rav quoting Rebbi Chiya, describes the 'Arkuvah' in our Mishnah as the one that is sold together with the head.
Which limb is that?

(e) How does he then interpret ...

  1. ... 'Lematah min ha'Arkuvah' that is Kasher?
  2. ... 'le'Ma'alah min ha'Arkuvah' that is Tereifah?
(a) Ula Amar Rebbi Hoshaya explains 'Arkuva' as the one that can be seen protruding from the front of a camel's leg.
Which one is that?

(b) How does he then ...

  1. ... explain 'Lematah and Lema'alah min ha'Arkuvah?
  2. ... query Rav Yehudah, based on the continuation of our Mishnah 've'Chein she'Nital Tzomes ha'Gidin'?
(c) Why did Ula reject Rav Yehudah's answer, making two cases out of a cut in the leg and the removal of the Tzomes ha'Gidim?

(d) Rav Yehudah had no answer.
On what grounds did he reject his own suggestion that perhaps the Tana means 'Lematah min ha'Arkuvah' but Lema'alah mi'Tzomes ha'Gidin'?

(a) How does Rav Papa quote Rav Yehudah Amar Rav ... ('Lematah ... ' and 'Lema'alah ... ') to conform with Ula Amar Rebbi Hoshaya? Which Arkuvah is he referring to?

(b) To which Arkuva is Rav Yehudah now referring?

(c) If 'Lema'alah ... ' therefore refers to the thigh-bone, what does 'Lematah ... ' refer to?

(d) And what does he then hold regarding the middle (calf)-bone?

(a) What problem do we have with Ula Amar Rebbi Hoshaya? How do the rulings in our Mishnah appear to contradict each other?

(b) How does Rav Ashi answer this Kashya?

(c) Like which Lashon do we rule, and like whom (Rav Yehudah or Ula)?

(d) What are the ramifications of this ruling?

(a) Rabah Amar Rav Ashi (or Rav Asi) defines the Tzomes as 'de'Agrema u'le'Bar'. Given that the knee-bone above the joint is devoid of flesh, what does ...
  1. ... he mean.
  2. ... Rabah bar Rav Huna mean when he says 'de'Agrema u'le'Gev'?
(b) Rava b'rei de'Rabah bar Rav Huna Amar Rav Ashi is the most stringent of them all.
What does he say?

(c) What did Rebbi Aba comment, when a certain Talmid-Chacham declared that the Tzomes ha'Gidin corresponding to the actual Arkom is Tereifah?

(a) Rebbi Aba quoted Rav Yehudah, who gave the Shi'ur as from the point where the butcher flays the animal.
What was the purpose of that flaying?

(b) With whose opinion does Rav Yehudah conform?

(c) Rav Yehudah Amar Shmuel defined the Tzomes ha'Gidin as 'Tzomsin'. What did he mean by that?

(d) A certain Talmid-Chacham quoting Rav Yehudah, gave the Shiur for that as from the place where the Gidin fuse, up to the point where they separate.
From whom did Rav Yehudah hear that?

(e) What measurement does Abaye give in defining this Shi'ur?

(a) To which category of animal does this Shi'ur pertain?

(b) Abaye gives four signs by which to recognize the Tzomes ha'Gidin of a small animal. Three of them are: as long as they still protrude from the flesh, and if they are hard and thick. What are then the four Simanim by which one knows that the nerves are not part of Tzomes ha'Gidin?

(c) The fourth Siman of Tzomes ha'Gidin is that they are colored white. What does Mar bar Rav Ashi comment on that? What Siman will replace the white colour?

Answers to questions



(a) Based on the fact that one of the three Gidin is thick, and the other two, thin, what does Ameimar in the name of Rav Z'vid say about a case where...
  1. ... the thick one snapped?
  2. ... the two thin ones snapped?
(b) Mar bar Rav Ashi is more lenient than Ameimar.
What does *he* say?

(c) Like whom is the Halachah?

(d) And like whom is the Halachah regarding the Shi'ur of Tzomes ha'Gidin?

(a) How many Gidin does a bird have? What happens if one of them snaps?

(b) What did Mar bar Rav Ashi see his father do when he found only fifteen Gidin in a chicken instead of sixteen?

(c) On what grounds did Shmuel object when Rav Yehudah informed him of Rav's ruling, declaring an animal Tereifah if the majority of one Gid snaps?

(d) In any event, according to Rav Yehudah, even Shmuel requires a majority of two Gidin to remain intact. Ravna'i Amar Shmuel disagrees with this. What did Ravna'i quote Shmuel as saying? What is a 'Chut ha'Sarbol'?

(a) How do others explain Rav Yehudah Amar Rav's statement 'Tzomes ha'Gidin she'Amru be'Rubo'?

(b) On what grounds did Shmuel protest this time, when Rav Yehudah told him what Rav said?

(c) What do we comment now vis-a-vis Ravna'i Amar Shmuel?

(a) Commenting on the final case in our Mishnah ('Nishbar ha'Etzem ... ') Rav rules that as long as the majority of the flesh remains intact, both the animal and the limb are permitted.
Assuming that it is not, what distinction does he draw between the middle bone (the calf) and the lower one?

(b) What does Shmuel say?

(c) What did Rav Acha bar Rav Huna retort when Rav Nachman asked how it is possible according to Shmuel, for the bone to be thrown on to the trash-heap and the animal to be Kasher?

(d) What did Rav Nachman reply? How did he amend his Kashya?

(a) In Eretz Yisrael, they had difficulty in deciding the Halachah.
Like whom did they finally rule?

(b) They added that the bone itself is Metamei be'Masa (renders the person who carries it Tamei, even though he does not actually touch it).
Why is that?

(a) Rav Chisda queries the previous ruling from the Beraisa that we discussed earlier, where Rebbi Meir asked the Rabbanan 'Lo, Im Tiharah Shechitas Tereifah Osah ve'es ha'Eiver ha'Meduldal ... '.
What is the Kashya?

(b) Rabah queries Rav Chisda from the Mishnah earlier 'Nishchetah be'Damehah Divrei Rebbi Meir, Rebbi Shimon Omer Lo Huchsheru'.
Why is this a Kashya on Rav Chisda?

(c) What did Rav Chisda reply? Why did he ask from the Beraisa and not from the Mishnah?

(a) What did Rebbi Zeira comment when, upon his arrival from Bavel, he heard Rebbi Yirmiyah bar Aba repeating the distinction that Rav made between a fracture on the middle hind-leg bone and one on the lower one?

(b) Why did Rebbi Zeira refer to Shmuel as 'Aryoch'?

(c) But did Shmuel not argue with Rav over this point?

(a) What does the Beraisa say about a case where the lower leg-bone fractures and protrudes from the flesh? Under which circumstances will the bone be permitted?

(b) Rav Dimi quoting Rebbi Yochanan, gives the Shi'ur as 'Rov Avav'.
What does this mean?

(c) What do others say?

(d) What does Rav Papa therefore rule?

(a) Ula Amar Rebbi Yochanan rules 'Or, Harei He ke'Basar'. Rav Nachman asks why he did not say 'Or Mitztaref le'Basar'.
What is the difference between the two?

(b) How does Ula refute Rav Nachman's proof from the Lashon of the Beraisa 'Im Or u'Basar Chofin es Rubo' (implying that it only combines with the flesh, as he explained)? How does *he* read the Beraisa?

(a) What did Rav Nachman ask Ula according to the second Lashon, where Ula Amar Rebbi Yochanan originally stated 'Or Mitztaref le'Basar'?

(b) In response, Ula cited an incident that took place with Rebbi Yitzchak. What did Rebbi Yochanan rule there when he brought him a duck with a fractured leg that protruded from the leg, and where most of it was covered half by skin and half by flesh?

(c) On what basis did Rav Nachman refute Ula's proof from that incident? Why is a duck different?

Answers to questions

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