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Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Jerusalem

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Chulin 85

CHULIN 85 (26 Nissan) - dedicated by Mr. Avi Berger (of Queens, N.Y.) in memory of his mother, Leah bas Michel Mordechai, on the day of her Yahrzeit.


(a) What does Rebbi Meir in our Mishnah, rule regarding covering the blood of a bird that one Shechts and that turns out to be Tereifah, or that one Shechts to Avodah-Zarah, Chulin bi'Fenim or Kodshim ba'Chutz?

(b) Likewise, he obligates the Kisuy ha'Dam of a Chayah or an Of that ought to have been stoned.
What is the case?

(c) What do the Chachamim say in the above cases? Who is 'the Chachamim'?

(d) Finally, what does the Mishnah rule in a case where the Shechitah turns out to be Pasul, or where one killed the Chayah or the bird through Nichur or by tearing out the Siman?

(a) Rebbi presents Rebbi Shimon's opinion as 'the Chachamim'.
What did he do in the equilavalent set of cases in 'Oso ve'es B'no'?

(b) What does Rebbi Chiya bar Aba Amar Rebbi Yochanan comment on this?

(c) Rebbi Yehoshua ben Levi explains that Rebbi Meir learned his opinion by 'Oso ve'es B'no' with a 'Gezeirah-Shavah' "Shechitah" "Shechitah".
Where did he learn it from?

(d) Rebbi Shimon on the other hand, says Rebbi Mani bar Patish, learned his opinion from the Pasuk "u'Tevo'ach Tevach ve'Hachen".
In which connection is this written?

(a) Why does Rebbi Meir decline to learn Shechitah she'Einah Re'uyah by Oso ve'es B'no from "u'Tevo'ach Tevach ve'Hachen"?

(b) But does it really matter whether the 'Gezeirah-Shavah' is learned from 'Shechitah' or from 'Zevichah'? Did Tana de'Bei Rebbi Yishmael not learn a 'Gezeirah-Shavah' involving "ve'Shav ha'Kohen" and "u'Va ha'Kohen" (with regard to Tzara'as Batim), based on the fact that the two words ("ve'Shav" and "u'Va") are similar in meaning?

(c) And why does Rebbi Shimon decline to learn Shechitah she'Einah Re'uyah by Oso ve'es B'no from Shechutei Chutz (where the Shechitah is Kasher)?

(d) Rebbi however, prefers Rebbi Meir's counter argument (as Rebbi Chiya bar Aba explains).
What does Rebbi Chiya bar Aba say?

(a) Resh Lakish explains that, with regard to Kisuy ha'Dam, Rebbi Meir learns 'Shechitah she'Einah Re'uyah Sh'mah Shechitah' with a 'Gezeirah-Shavah' "Shefichah" "Shefichah".
From where does he learn it?

(b) Based on the Pasuk "Asher Ye'achel", how does Rebbi Shimon counter that?
Where is "Asher Ye'achel" written?

(c) Rebbi Meir contends that we need "Asher Ye'achel" by Kisuy ha'Dam, to preclude Tamei birds. Rebbi prefers Rebbi Shimon's opinion because of his answer.
What did he answer Rebbi Meir?

Answers to questions



(a) Rebbi Aba points out that, on the one hand, not in all regards does Rebbi Meir hold 'Shechitah she'Einah Re'uyah Sh'mah Shechitah', whereas on the other, it is not in all regards that Rebbi Shimon holds ' ... Lo Sh'mah Shechitah', either.
In which regard does ...
  1. ... Rebbi Meir concede that ' ... Lo Sh'mah Shechitah'?
  2. ... Rebbi Shimon concede that '. ... Sh'mah Shechitah'?
(b) It is obvious that Shechitah cannot permit a Tereifah to be eaten. What must Rebbi Aba therefore referring to when he informs us that Rebbi Meir concedes 'she'Ein Matirasah ba'Achilah'?

(c) But have we not learned that, according to Rebbi Meir, a ben Peku'ah requires its own Shechitah anyway? According to which Tana is Rebbi Aba therefore speaking?

(d) And what is coming to teach us?

(a) What does Rav Yehudah Amar Rav (or the Tana in a Beraisa) learn from the Pasuk in Shemini (in connection with Tum'as Neveilos) "ve'Chi Yamus *min* ha'Beheimah"?

(b) Which animals are not Metamei Neveilah?

(c) What problem does this create with Rebbi Aba's second statement?

(d) We answer by citing the Beraisa 'ha'Shochet es ha'Tereifah ve'Chein ha'Shochet ve'Nimtza'as Tereifah, Zeh ve'Zeh Chulin ba'Azarah ... '.
What is the difference between the two cases?

(a) In the current case, the Beraisa continues 'Rebbi Shimon Matir be'Hana'ah'.
Why is that?

(b) What do the Chachamim say?

(c) How does this Beraisa help us understand Rebbi Aba's latter statement?
What might we have extrapolated from Rebbi Shimon's ruling?

(a) Rav Papa asked Abaye whether Rebbi Shimon really holds that Chulin she'Nishchatu ba'Azarah is d'Oraysa.
What might the alternative be? Why might the Rabbanan have forbidden it?

(b) Then how does Rav Papa extrapolate from Rebbi Shimon that it is d'Oraysa?

(c) If it is d'Oraysa, what is the source for the Isur?

(d) What did Abaye reply? How did he derive his answer from the Mishnah in Temurah, which quotes Rebbi Shimon 'Chulin She'Nishchatu ba'Azarah Yisarfu ba'Eish; ve'Chein Chayah she'Nishchatah ba'Azarah'?

(a) What did Rebbi advise Rebbi Chiya to do, when moths attacked his linen clothes?

(b) Based on a Beraisa, we have a problem with Rebbi's ruling.
What does the Beraisa say about someone who Shechts a bird and needs the blood?

(c) How does the Tana circumvent the problem?

(a) When Rav Dimi arrived from Eretz Yisrael, he quoted Rebbi as having instructed Rebbi Chiya to go and render the bird a Tereifah. How did Ravina quote Rebbi, when *he* arrived from Eretz Yisrael?

(b) We ask why Rav Dimi did not cite the episode like Ravin.
On what grounds do we reject the suggestion that Rebbi does not require Shechitah min ha'Torah, and that the animal's Nechirah would therefore have been considered as its Shechitah.
What did Rebbi say in a Beraisa, based on the Pasuk "Ve'zavachta ... Ka'asher Tzivisicha"?

(c) Besides the Shechitah of the Vest and of the Kaneh, what else does Rebbi there incorporate in "Ka'asher Tzivisicha"?

(d) So why *did* Rav Dimi cite Rebbi as having said 'Tzei Terof', and not 'Tzei Nechor'? What is the Chidush of 'Tzei Terof'?

Answers to questions

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