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Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Jerusalem

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Chulin 129

CHULIN 128-130 - dedicated by Mrs. Rita Grunberger of Queens, N.Y., in loving memory of her husband, Reb Yitzchok Yakov ben Eliyahu Grunberger. Irving Grunberger helped many people quietly in an unassuming manner and is dearly missed by all who knew him. His Yahrzeit is 10 Sivan (which coincides with the study of Chulin 128 this year).


(a) Rebbi Zeira cited Rebbi Aba bar Mamal, who established the Beraisa ('ha'Chotech [k'Beitzah] Basar me'Eiver min ha'Chai ... Chishev Alav ve'Achar-Kach Chatcho, Tamei') like Rebbi Meir, who holds Tum'as Beis ha'Setarim, Tamei'.
In which Mishnah did Rebbi Meir say this?

(b) What problem does Rebbi Asi have with that? Based on Rebbi Aba bar Mamal's source, why might the Beraisa be different, as he had himself asked Rebbi Aba bar Mamal?

(c) Why did Rabah bar Rav Chanan think that the Beraisa cannot be speaking when the Basar was in fact Huchshar?

(d) To which Rava replied that it could, because 'ke'she'Shimesh, Ma'aseh Eitz Shimesh'.
What did he mean by that?

(e) Then why is a Nivlas Of Tahor Metamei the person who eats it be'Toras Ochel, even without a Hechsher, in spite of the fact that it is already Tamei Tum'ah Chamurah?

(a) What does the Sugya in Pesachim say about a lump of yeast that one designated as a chair?

(b) What sort of Tum'ah is it subject to?

(c) Why does Abaye assume that ...

  1. ... this Tum'ah must be de'Rabbanan and not d'Oraysa?
  2. ... the Tum'as Ohel that pertains to food that one offers to Avodah-Zarah must be de'Rabbanan, and not d'Oraysa (and the Pasuk of "Va'yochlu Zivchei Meisim" is only an Asmachta)?
(d) On what grounds do we reject Abaye's ...
  1. ... first assumption?
  2. ... second assumption?
(a) On what basis is Cheilev of a Neveilah Tamei Tum'as Neveilah?

(b) Based on this ruling, what did Rav Papa comment to Rava on the Mishnah in Uktzin, which renders the Cheilev Neveilah of villagers Tamei Tum'as Ochlin with Machshavah?

(c) How did Rava counter Rav Papa's assumption?

(a) What did the Chachamim say about the ceiling of a house that comprises sheaves of corn?

(b) What did Rav Masna comment on that?

(c) On what grounds do we reject Rav Masna's assumption?

(d) What expression do we use to answer all the above Kashyos?

Answers to questions



(a) Rebbi Shimon in the Seifa (after the Tana has discussed 'Meisah ha'Beheimah') rules that the loose Eiver or Basar remain Tahor.
What problem do we have with this 'mi'Mah Nafshach'?

(b) If Rebbi Shimon does not refer to the Seifa, then to which ruling do we initially ascribe his statement?

(c) Rebbi Asi Amar Rebbi Yochanan bases Rebbi Shimon's reasoning on the Pasuk in Shemini "mi'Kol ha'Ochel Asher Ye'achel".
What does Rebbi Shimon learn from there?

(a) We reject the suggestion that Rebbi Yochanan refers to the Reisha however, because then we could equate Rebbi Shimon with Rebbi Yehudah in the Mishnah in Uktzin that we quoted earlier, where he declares Tahor the branch of a fig-tree that broke loose, but that is still connected by the bark.
What do the Chachamim say?

(b) What reason to we ascribe to Rebbi Yehudah there?

(c) So we ascribe Rebbi Yochanan's statement to the Metzi'asa, where Rebbi Shimon maintains that the blood of the Shechitah is not Machshir the animal. How does Rebbi Asi Amar Rebbi Yochanan now explain that?

(d) And we reject this assumption too, on the grounds that Rebbi Shimon's reason there is either because of Rabah or because of Rebbi Yochanan (and Abaye).
What reason does ...

  1. ... Rabah give to explain Rebbi Shimon?
  2. ... Rebbi Yochanan give to explain Rebbi Shimon?
7) We finally establish Rebbi Asi Amar Rebbi Yochanan on Rebbi Shimon in the Seifa.
How do we resolve our original Kashya from 'mi'Mah Nafshach'? If Rebbi Yochanan is not referring to Eiver min ha'Chai, then what is he referring to?


(a) Our Mishnah rules that a loose Eiver or loose Basar of a live human being is Tahor, as is the Basar, even after he dies.
What is the reason for ...
  1. ... the first ruling?
  2. ... the second ruling?
(b) What does Rebbi Meir say about the loose Eiver of dead man? On what grounds is it Tamei?

(c) What does Rebbi Shimon say?

(d) What is the problem with Rebbi Shimon's ruling ('mi'Mah-Nafshach')?

(a) We conclude that Rebbi is not referring specifically to the case in our Mishnah.
Then what is he referring to?

(b) In which case will he concede that an Eiver min ha'Meis is Metamei?

(a) In fact, Rebbi Shimon follows the opinion of Rebbi Eliezer in the Beraisa.
What did Rebbi Eliezer mean when he stated 'Shama'ti she'Eiver min ha'Chai Metamei'?

(b) What 'Kal-va'Chomer' did Rebbi Yehoshua Darshen to counter that statement?

(a) Rebbi Yehoshua backed his ruling with a statement from Megilas Ta'anis.
What could one imply from the ruling that one may not eulogize a dead person on Pesach Sheini?

(b) Why is such an inference not possible?

(c) So what does Rebbi Yehoshua prove from there?

(a) According to Rebbi Meir in our Mishnah, what difference does it make whether a loose limb or loose Basar are considered Eiver min ha'Chai or Eiver min ha'Meis?

(b) In the Mishnah in Iduyos ...

  1. ... Rebbi Eliezer declares a k'Zayis Basar that comes from Eiver min ha'Chai, Tamei.
    What do Rebbi Nechunyah ben Hakanah and Rebbi Yehoshua say?
  2. ... Rebbi Nechunyah ben Hakanah declares a bone the size of a barley that comes from Eiver min ha'Chai Tamei.
    What do Rebbi Eliezer and Rebbi Yehoshua say?
(c) Based on the Mishnah in Iduyos, how else might we establish the Machlokes between Rebbi Meir and Rebbi Shimon in our Mishnah?

(d) What will Rebbi Shimon then hold regarding the Eiver itself?

13) The Mishnah in Iduyos explains the reasoning of each of the three Tana'im cited there.
Why is Rebbi ...
  1. ... Eliezer more stringent by Basar from Eiver min ha'Chai than by Atzamos?
  2. ... Nechunyah ben Hakanah more lenient by Basar from Eiver min ha'Chai than by Atzamos?
  3. ... Yehoshua more lenient by both than by Atzamos and Basar min ha'Meis?
*** Hadran Alach 'ha'Or veha'Rotav ***

Answers to questions

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